tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post2432223997509867087..comments2012-02-22T06:44:21.775-08:00Comments on PHILOSOPHY OF JUDAISM: Evidence and the ExodusAaron Segal, Sam Lebens, Dani Rabinowitzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12072138513573624712noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-42246655960749492462011-09-20T04:35:13.732-07:002011-09-20T04:35:13.732-07:00Fine, Sam. I understand your point and will consid...Fine, Sam. I understand your point and will consider it. Thank you. YehudaYehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-54723501881318236872011-09-20T04:28:31.948-07:002011-09-20T04:28:31.948-07:00Gosh Yehudah.
You assume that I was being cynical...Gosh Yehudah.<br /><br />You assume that I was being cynical or antagonistic when I said that I might be confused, somehow implying that you were the one that was confused.<br /><br />In fact, I meant, as I said, that *I* might be confused.<br /><br />I was assuming that you had probably noticed some sort of flaw in my position and that I wasn't able to discern what it was you were diagnosingSam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-70773413692207145132011-09-20T02:21:45.538-07:002011-09-20T02:21:45.538-07:00Sam,
From the way you formulate your question it i...Sam,<br />From the way you formulate your question it is clear that you think that I am the one who is confused, and that I do not understand (or perhaps am not able to understand) what you wrote. So let me try again. You say that God might want us to relate to God as though he really freed us from actual slavery. So when we talk to God in prayer, I imagine you want to say that we make believe Yehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-90559751085979172882011-09-19T12:36:31.861-07:002011-09-19T12:36:31.861-07:00And the quote is wonderful. Thanks for that too.And the quote is wonderful. Thanks for that too.Sam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-58512733841265887652011-09-19T12:17:57.780-07:002011-09-19T12:17:57.780-07:00Thank you Yehuda for your continued interest.
Sor...Thank you Yehuda for your continued interest.<br /><br />Sorry for my confusion, but how is your suggestion - that from my point of view it would be more satisfying to think of the Exodus in prayer as a metaphor for metaphysical and existential realities - different to what I said?Sam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-41349104651243903522011-09-19T11:49:21.320-07:002011-09-19T11:49:21.320-07:00Sam
I think your interpretation of prayer and the ...Sam<br />I think your interpretation of prayer and the Exodus story is not reasonable. From your point of view it would be more satisfying to think of the Exodus in prayer as a metaphor for metaphysical and existential realities. YehudaYehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-15777313898183891802011-09-19T11:44:58.372-07:002011-09-19T11:44:58.372-07:00Here is a radical view from a Haredi Rabbi in Isra...Here is a radical view from a Haredi Rabbi in Israel who is a teacher of the Ashlag Kabbalah:<br /><br />ואולי יש גם ענין של דעת קהל, כי דעת הציבור החרדי בכללו ש"אין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו", ולא רצה לסתור את אמונת ההמונים. אולם מאחורי הקלעים שמעתי מאדמו"ר זצ"ל שאמר לי בפירוש כך: באמת מקרא כן יוצא מידי פשוטו, ומה שחז"ל אמרו "אין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו", כי חששו שאם Yehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-24059294434587861402011-09-19T04:49:02.381-07:002011-09-19T04:49:02.381-07:00I should just add, as a point of clarification: I ...I should just add, as a point of clarification: I still happen to believe that something like the Exodus happened, and I think that it might well be essential for the Jew to believe, as I do, that there was some sort of revealation at Sinai; a revealation that functions as the source of the halakha's authority.Sam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-51767516649087190322011-09-19T04:47:21.442-07:002011-09-19T04:47:21.442-07:00Some relevant snipits from my new work:
"Eri...Some relevant snipits from my new work:<br /><br />"Eric Hobsbawm’s classic work, The Age of Revolution: Europe 1789-1848, an example I pick at random, is an influential work of history, and is regarded so by our culture. But, we haven’t designed any rituals to re-enact its main scenes. We may want to read it, criticise it, agree or disagree with it, but we don’t try to relive it. That’s notSam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-65863364533256906502011-09-19T04:33:48.094-07:002011-09-19T04:33:48.094-07:00I think that we can make sense of the prayer book ...I think that we can make sense of the prayer book *even* if we deny the entire story. God might want us to relate to him as if he redeemed us from actual slavery, even if he didn't; just as he wants us to relate to him as our father in heaven, even though that's surely a metaphor; a way of relating to him that gets something right despite its inaccuracy.<br /><br />And even if you're Sam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-62071122995106364932011-09-19T03:58:59.875-07:002011-09-19T03:58:59.875-07:00It is hard for me to understand how a person who d...It is hard for me to understand how a person who does not believe in the Exodus Story can pray the Jewish prayer book. In prayer, we are speaking to God and not pretending something to be true. We thank God over and over for taking us out of Egypt. YehudaYehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-46839343296049358042011-08-15T09:27:41.242-07:002011-08-15T09:27:41.242-07:00I too am wary of distinguishing between religious ...I too am wary of distinguishing between religious and regular epistemic justification. As I take it, that is a distinction that Yehuda would want us to draw in the face of problems that surround the evidential basis of ES, for example.<br /><br />I don't think that Judaism necessarily requires us to believe very much. And, regarding what it does require us to believe, such as the existence ofSam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-81522858611634865052011-08-15T08:10:47.409-07:002011-08-15T08:10:47.409-07:00Sam, as always you've given me a lot to think ...Sam, as always you've given me a lot to think about. Here are some quick points. I am wary of distinguishing between "religious epistemic justification" and regular epistemic justification. I think the norms of epistemic justification hold with respect to a belief p regardless of the content of p i.e. were p to be a religious belief (not quite sure what that is though) the same Dani Rabinowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02686037316872541259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-49656754155887486832011-08-14T01:23:56.788-07:002011-08-14T01:23:56.788-07:00Andrew S. Eshleman, “Can an Atheist Believe in God...Andrew S. Eshleman, “Can an Atheist Believe in God?” Religious Studies 41 (2005)<br /><br />YehudaYehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-9297493129163114772011-08-12T08:32:17.757-07:002011-08-12T08:32:17.757-07:00I have one more question for Yehuda, and a caveat ...I have one more question for Yehuda, and a caveat upon what I've said today.<br /><br />The question:<br /><br />What would count as a relgious justification for belief? Is the belief that the Lubavticher Rebbe was the messiah sufficiently important to some people's faith to count as sufficient religious justification? What does 'important to some people's faith' mean?<br /><Sam Lebensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-28841986481351519642011-08-12T07:54:56.950-07:002011-08-12T07:54:56.950-07:00Aaron, I'm in complete agreement with you last...Aaron, I'm in complete agreement with you last comment. You're right that we shouldn't conflate the two views.<br />Yehuda's: Faith as belief but without the need for epistemic-justification.<br />Mine: Faith as something completely removed from the concerns of epistemology classically conceived - faith, perhaps, as make-believe.<br /><br />Yehuda, on your account of faith, I see Sam Lebensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-87429731289076547072011-08-12T06:24:11.216-07:002011-08-12T06:24:11.216-07:00Sam,
To say that in certain cases faith might be ...Sam, <br />To say that in certain cases faith might be "irrational" is to look at those cases from an epistemic point of view. Whatever merit faith might have from a religious point of view it is not immune to epistemic evaluation "from the outside." From the "inside" one might feel that its irrationality is not relevant, or that the charge misses the point. <br />Yehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-4617559777491312972011-08-12T06:13:04.662-07:002011-08-12T06:13:04.662-07:00Hey Sam - I think your suggestion is quite differe...Hey Sam - I think your suggestion is quite different from Yehuda's. As I understand it, Yehuda is thinking of a situation in which a person really believes a certain claim, but does so without epistemic justification and with religious justification - the justification being that believing it is called for by a faith (trust?) in God. Your idea, I take it, is that sometimes we ought to Aaron Segalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245608631080094522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-6431140319638827852011-08-12T00:49:22.701-07:002011-08-12T00:49:22.701-07:00Sorry about my typos, I hope people can still nava...Sorry about my typos, I hope people can still navagate through that last comment!Sam Lebensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-69614415165974190252011-08-12T00:47:39.515-07:002011-08-12T00:47:39.515-07:00I find the idea that faith is something suis gener...I find the idea that faith is something suis generis, undrelated to belief to be facinating. I know it's not exactly what you said, but the thought was certainly inspired by your last comment.<br />Faith has its own norms, its own justifications, quite apart from the norms of epistemology.<br />I like that idea. But then, it wouldn't have to be irrational.<br />If faith is divorced from Sam Lebensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-86045198577265942442011-08-11T11:50:25.456-07:002011-08-11T11:50:25.456-07:00Dear Bloggers,
I have been away and now have littl...Dear Bloggers,<br />I have been away and now have little time to continue. I leave you with two thoughts to ponder:<br />1. We should be wary of invoking personal proper basicality in support of religious beliefs, and especially with regard to the ES. It is questionable how many of us have a properly basic belief in the ES, and invoking such is an easy escape route for the epistemic shirker. Yehuda Gellmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07782987101117947466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-59150739481577480742011-08-05T01:51:57.538-07:002011-08-05T01:51:57.538-07:00So I was chatting to John Hawthorne yesterday abou...So I was chatting to John Hawthorne yesterday about subject-sensitive invariantism and defeat in light of Sam's point. As there are different ways of spelling out that account and different positions one can hold about the nature of defeat, there is no one way to spell out how SSI interacts with defeat. But he said that if one wanted "slogans" then the following slogan makes sense: Dani Rabinowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02686037316872541259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-82453791226497174542011-08-02T05:04:48.152-07:002011-08-02T05:04:48.152-07:00I grant you point 1. Nothing impossible there. Ind...I grant you point 1. Nothing impossible there. Indeed, I was thinking about a person who believes not-ES. Merely recognising that the epistemic situation isn't great evidence-wise, doesn't make belief impossible.<br /><br />2 is more troubling to me. Surely I can know something is false and then come to believe it. But that always seems to be an unfortunate state of affairs from an Sam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-90408632510543996932011-08-02T04:45:51.362-07:002011-08-02T04:45:51.362-07:00Sam:
I think there are two important points to kee...Sam:<br />I think there are two important points to keep in mind here with regard to your question of whether the suggested course of action/belief is possible:<br />1) The suggestion (as I outlined it) was not with resepct to a person who fails to believe ES or who believes not-ES, but with respect to a person who believes that HIS (TOTAL) EVIDENCE doesn't support ES (and maybe even supportsAaron Segalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245608631080094522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519695949645288674.post-4939788575021998892011-08-02T04:32:43.470-07:002011-08-02T04:32:43.470-07:00As a thought experiment, the situation in which a ...As a thought experiment, the situation in which a person doesn't believe that P is true but does believe that God is telling him, for some unknown, but obviously just, reason to believe p, throws up lots of interesting questions. I would be excited if this was, indeed, Yehuda's suggested thought experiment.<br /><br />Even though I do think I have good enough evidence to justify my beliefSam Lebenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232919028270795728noreply@blogger.com